"...and EVERY EYE shall see Him" - how scripture defines "every eye"

[3 Resurrections]

Let's start first of all with the common, assumed understanding of Revelation 1:7 and what "EVERY EYE shall see Him" returning in the clouds means to most people.  The majority will say that this Revelation 1:7 verse is describing a simultaneous view of a physically-returning Christ for every human alive on the entire globe in that same moment of time when Christ sets foot on the Mount of Olives for His second coming.

Those who have read some of my comments previously on this subject know that I do not dispute this reality of a bodily return of Christ with His angels on the Mount of Olives.  However, Revelation 1:7 never gives a promise that Christ's return in the clouds on that occasion would be viewed by every person alive on the globe at the same time.  The terms of limitation for just who would be seeing this in person are found in the very same verse of Revelation 1:7.  It would be specifically "THEY WHICH PIERCED HIM." 

Here is Revelation 1:7 as the YLT version presents it: "Lo, he doth come with the clouds, and see him shall every eye, EVEN those who did pierce him, and wail because of him shall all the tribes of the land.  Yes!  Amen!"

The reason I have stressed the word "EVEN" in the above verse (which is the same word that almost half of the translations use) is because that word as it is used in this context has the same meaning as the word "namely".  We could also substitute "that is", or "in other words", or "i.e." for the word "EVEN" in this case.  The word "EVEN" is used in an explanatory sense.  So, the understanding we get from this verse is that the "every eye" that sees Christ returning in the clouds is speaking only of a certain group - "EVEN" (namely) "those who pierced Him". 

Lest we should be in doubt as to whether that would refer to the Romans or to the Jews who at the crucifixion would "look on Him whom they pierced" (John 19:37), the Revelation 1:7 context goes on to further tell us that it would be the "tribes of the land" (ge - the land of Israel's tribes) who would wail when they saw Christ returning in the clouds.  This tells us that "those who pierced Him" is describing the Jews of that generation who were guilty of killing Christ, as both Peter and Stephen clearly accused them (Acts 2:22-23, 36, 3:14-15, 7:52).  Since the tribal divisions have long since been eradicated by God (Mal. 4:1, I Tim. 1:4, Titus 3:9), and all records of Jewish genealogies incinerated when the temple was burned in AD 70, this Revelation 1:7 verse has to be referring to a time just before that cataclysm physically erased the tribal distinctions for all time. 

Here is another example of the word "EVEN" used in scripture where it means "namely".  In James 3:9 (KJV), speaking of the tongue, James says, "Therewith bless we God, EVEN the Father" (namely, the Father) "and therewith curse we men which are made after the similitude of God."

Here is another use of the word "EVEN" where it means "namely", found in Revelation 17:11 (KJV).  "And the beast that was, and is not, EVEN he is the eighth..." (namely, he the beast is the eighth).

And another in II Thessalonians 2:16.  "Now our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and God, EVEN our Father" (namely, our Father) "which hath loved us and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace..."

And this one, as Christ wept over Jerusalem in Luke 19:42-44 (KJV), "Saying, If thou hadst known, EVEN thou," (namely you, Jerusalem) "at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace!  but now they are hid from thine eyes.  For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, and shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation."  Jesus was clearly describing the soon-coming siege and fall of Jerusalem which was also prophesied long before in Zechariah chapters 12-14 in great detail. 

The mourning in Zechariah 12:10-14 was going to be intense for all the tribes who were left remaining in the city of Jerusalem as it was being destroyed, piece by piece, family tribe by family tribe.  This grief would be as overwhelming as if they were bitterly mourning the death of an only son, because quite literally, any tribal family genealogical lines were going to be cut off completely in those days.  Their eyes, which had not perceived Jesus for who He really was in the days when Jesus wept over the city, would finally be opened to see The One whom they had been instrumental in putting to death.

John promised in Revelation 1:7 that every eye of those responsible for piercing Christ at the crucifixion would see Him coming in the clouds.  He would stand on the Mount of Olives on that occasion (Zechariah 14:4), and that generation would see Him across the Kidron Valley - the "great gulf fixed" between them, as in the Lazarus and the rich man parable - but they would be unable to escape the "furnace of fire" in Jerusalem where they were trapped (Matthew 13:42).  "Wailing and gnashing of teeth" would go on as they would see the resurrected saints joining Christ and returning to heaven while they themselves were "thrust out" ( Luke 13:28), and left "remaining" in the disintegrating city, as Zechariah 14:14 said they would be left.

Even though they had personally eaten and drunk with the incarnate Christ during His ministry, and had once had Him teach in their very own streets of Jerusalem, He would declare them to be workers of iniquity that He did not acknowledge as belonging to Him (Luke 13:26-27).  Those resurrected saints from every generation up until AD 70 would come from the east, west, north and south, and sit down together in the kingdom of God in heaven, including Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets which Jerusalem had been responsible for murdering (Luke 13:34).  Vengeance was finally repaid for Jerusalem's murder of Christ's servants, the prophets, when the trapped citizens in Jerusalem saw the returning Christ gather these resurrected saints and return to heaven with them, leaving the mourning tribal families to remain behind on the outside of the "door" (Luke 13:25).

So, when all is said and done, "EVERY EYE" already saw this Revelation 1:7 event being accomplished; a prophecy written long ago by Zechariah, which was finally fulfilled to the letter when the city of Jerusalem was demolished to the foundations along with the nation at the end of that Old Covenant age.
 

[notreligus]

As I understand this particular End-Times forum it is for the discussion of beliefs about future events (i.e. Futurism) to occur before the return of Jesus Christ.   Your opening post is pure Preterism.  Full Preterists don't believe that there will be end-times events to fulfill Old or New Testament prophecy before the return of Christ but instead believe in Post-Millennialism.  That is the belief that Christ will return when the Church has fulfilled its command to take the Gospel to the world and win the world over to the Gospel of Christ.  Then, after the Church has established the earthly kingdom, Christ will come and reign over it.    This is a Post-Millennial belief system and not one that shares any views related to Futurism.   For a Preterist, the future ended with A.D. 70.   

[fish153]

I have an interesting take on "every eye shall see Him".  Let me explain this by asking you to imagine a parade. A parade has a beginning and an end. If you happen to be standing where the parade STARTS you see it go by piece by piece until it is through.  If you happen to be standing at the END of the parade you will see what everyone at beginning saw until the last piece goes by.

However, if you happened to be on the 10th floor of a building you could look down and see the whole parade at ONE TIME---BEGINNING TO END.  This is the position God has when it comes to time.  He is OUTSIDE of it----so he can see ALL OF IT AT ONCE.

Now, if the people in the parade (and watching the parade) were told the Lord was RETURNING--how do we know what part of the parade He is returning to?  is he returning to the END of the parade? How do we know that?  We just ASSUME he is because we are trapped and limited by time. We simply assume that Jesus will come at the END because we live inside time.

What if the Lord chose to return to the WHOLE PARADE AT ONE TIME? That would mean that the Lord will return simultaneously in 70 AD, 1000AD,  1500AD, and 2000+ AD. he is OUTSIDE of time----so He can then return to ALL OF IT AT THE SAME MOMENT.  Could this be why he tells ALL GENERATIONS to "WATCH"?  Could this be why He says He is "COMING QUICKLY"?

And if He is able to return to ALL TIME PERIODS simultaneously----then EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM at ONE MOMENT.  People in 100AD will see Him returning at the same moment that people in 2018AD are seeing Him return.  I thought about this recently and found it very interesting.

[3 Resurrections]

fish153  -  Lol...I'm hearing strains of the "Twilight Zone" intro music as I read your comment.  Plus some "Back to the Future" scenes flashing through my head.  The time-warp theme does seem to have a perpetual appeal that fascinates people, but it doesn't really match up with the track record we have of Christ's activity on this planet.  Neither does it match with the stipulated time references God gave throughout the entire New Testament of just when Christ's return would occur. 

Remember, the disciples personally would not have gone through all the cities of Israel with their evangelistic message before the Son of Man had come, as Matthew 10:23 tells us.  That means Christ's SECOND coming arrived in THEIR days of the first century.  WE are waiting for the THIRD coming for God to resurrect His saints of the New Covenant Age from the dust of the grave.  And from everything I see in my studies, it will be in 3033 at the time the Feast of Tabernacles would have taken place under the Old Covenant.  I don't mind waiting; particularly since God promised that His "word would not return unto him void", but that it would accomplish the purpose for which He sent it.  The "INCREASE of His government and of His peace" between God and men shall have no end.  The "leaven" of the existing kingdom of God IS growing, whether we can see it from our perspective or not; Daniel's rock that struck the metals-man statue has been growing steadily ever since AD 70, and WILL fill the earth; and the mustard seed has been incrementally increasing in strength and size, whether we can see that from our particular viewpoint on the sidewalk of that "parade route" or not.  Sorry about the mixed metaphors there, fish153.  The scriptures are really more optimistic about the gospel's advance than we are most of the time.

fish153, do you have any opinions on the use of the word "EVEN" in this Revelation 1:7 verse?  I don't really need to dip into the Greek on this, because of the other comparable uses of this same word in the sample scripture texts I gave above, but I did do some research on the Greek word "KAI" as it is used in this context.  Unless I am greatly mistaken, the Greek "KAI" as it is used here most definitely has the sense of being explanatory, meaning "namely"; it is NOT used as a conjunction meaning "AND" in this case.   A good many of the translations miss this distinction.  The KJV interprets it as "...every eye shall see him AND THEY ALSO which pierced Him...", as if it were a universal view of Christ returning, which ALSO would include an additional group of those who pierced Him.  To arrive at that interpretation, the KJV has added the word "ALSO" into their translation, which changes the meaning entirely from the original intent. 


notreligus  -  Well, I happen to espouse quite a few of the Preterist positions, but I do NOT believe the future ended in AD 70.  The seven thunders' prophesies in Revelation 10:4 make it very clear that there were certain unrevealed events to be fulfilled AFTER AD 70, but that these prophesies were to be sealed up and reserved for a later time than John's immediate audience would have to deal with.   Seven is typically the number of completeness or fullness of perfection in scripture, and the 7 thunders illustrate that completeness in some way.  I believe the 7 thunders' prophesies match perfectly with 7,000 years of human history from the beginning of creation to the end, just like the 7-day creation week.  (Remember,  we are not to be ignorant of this one pertinent fact that "...a thousand years is as one day...")

Did you realize that God's recorded activity on each day of creation week is a picture-type of what His activities would include during each of the 7 individual millenia of human history? 

Think about it.  Adam was the "poster-boy" of the first millennium.  First day of creation, God separated light from darkness.  To match with that, the first millennium of human history could be summed up with Adam illustrating all of mankind's sinful darkness having to be separated from God, the source of light.  Significantly, Adam's lifespan of 930 years took up almost the entirety of the first millennium.   

Noah was the "poster-boy" of the second millennium, with God making a division in the waters (as He did on the 2nd day of creation) between those waters that belonged to Heaven, and those that belonged below that.  We know that before the flood, the waters of the deep provided a mist that watered the face of the ground (Gen. 2:5-6).  After the flood, God divided the waters so that rain from heaven provided the necessary moisture for the ground, and the waters of the deep had a bound set upon them, “that they turn not again to cover the earth “ (Ps. 104:6-9).

Abraham was the "poster-boy" of the third millenium, since God chose him out of the "sea" of Gentile nations to make a people for Himself.  This was similar to the 3rd day of creation, when the dry land appeared, was separated from the seas, and started bearing vegetation and fruit after its kind.  The "land" has typically represented God's chosen land of Canaan in scripture, separate from the "seas" of the Gentile nations.  Abraham, the father of the children of faith, was a picture of God separating His people of faith from among the "seas" of the unbelieving world, and causing them to bear fruit for Him. 

I guess you could call Solomon the "poster-boy" of the 4th millennium.  It began with Solomon's temple foundation being laid down in 967 BC.  This was the beginning of the Revelation 20 millennium, when Satan's deception of the nations was bound by the ministry of the prophets, and the light of God's message began to spread throughout the nations by the words of the Lord that the prophets wrote or spoke.  This was similar to the 4th day of creation week, which had "great lights" put in the heavens, for signs and for seasons, and for days and years, to add to men's knowledge of the world and of the God who had given them that world.   This millennium lasted until Christ's finished work on the cross and the "First Resurrection" in AD 33, as Revelation 20:5 tells us it was finished at that point.

The 5th millennium began with the surge of gospel evangelism being presented to the Gentile world, as Paul vividly demonstrated by his God-commissioned ministry.  Life sprang up abundantly in the "seas" of the Gentile world, just as there were burgeoning life forms in the oceans from the fifth day of creation onward.       

The 6th millennium enjoyed the most lavish blessings of all.  There are other instances in the Old Testament where God gave a greater-than-ordinary blessing on the 6th day, and the 6th year.  On the 6th day of creation, man and woman in God's image were given dominion over the planet, and told to subdue it.  One cannot dispute that this period from the close of the Dark Ages until now has experienced an explosion of God's blessing upon this earth for mankind; a truly iconic representation of mankind's dominion over the planet, compared to the previous 5 millennia.  Not only did an actual warming trend in weather patterns begin that bumped up the crop yields at the beginning of this millennium, but we had The Renaissance, the printed Word of God, the Reformation, The Great Awakening, great missionary endeavors, The Industrial Revolution, medical advances, technological expertise, automobiles, computers, and inventions galore, (and not to be profane....but toilet paper and indoor plumbing too).   We are coming up to the end of this 6th millennium of God's blessing, since I believe it will expire in 2033, some fifteen years from now.

The 7th millennium, as I have mentioned before on this site, I believe will be characterized by a period of imposed Sabbath rest, (just as God Himself demonstrated for us by resting from His works on the 7th day of creation), when the frantic pace of human activity on this planet will be sharply curtailed.  This will ultimately provide for the progress of God's gospel, by reducing the insane amount of distractions we have on our time and activities, even as Christians.  As many a Christian will admit, if hardships come, God can use them to drive us closer to the Savior, and cause us to rethink our priorities.  This is true even for unbelievers.  When God wanted to get close to His people in Old Testament days, He brought them into the wilderness, and made them totally dependent upon Him for their daily bread and their guidance in unknown territory.  I suspect this is part of what will be coming for the world at large in this next, last, 7th millennium of human history - when God will cause the world to "Be still and know that I am God".   His final return for the 3rd resurrection to eternal life for the physical bodies of His saints will occur at the close of this millennium, timed to arrive in the Feast of Tabernacles month in 3033, as I am convinced of by every indication or symbol that I can find in scripture.   

Well, notreligus, it looks as if I hijacked my own post by diverting from the original topic.  But I wanted to demonstrate that I do indeed believe in events future to AD 70, even though we do not have the details spelled out for us as clearly as those saints in the first century did for their immediate future.  Given a choice between the 1st century and the 21st century, I would much prefer to be living in this period when God's word is so abundantly available for my examination, and where I can fellowship online with anyone in this world in the body of Christ who has a computer and a keyboard.  It's a blessing, even though we may not agree on many things. 

[4WD]

fish153  -  Lol...I'm hearing strains of the "Twilight Zone" intro music as I read your comment.  Plus some "Back to the Future" scenes flashing through my head.  The time-warp theme does seem to have a perpetual appeal that fascinates people, but it doesn't really match up with the track record we have of Christ's activity on this planet.  Neither does it match with the stipulated time references God gave throughout the entire New Testament of just when Christ's return would occur. 

I am not sure why you find fish's view of this so strange.  It seems fairly apparent that when Christ returns, everything we think we know about this physical universe and existence will be radically changed if not altogether eliminated; and that includes both space and time which clearly are physical entities.  I am fully convinced the next life is to be purely spiritual (! Corinthians 15). We all, or at least most, accept the fact that God is not bound by space; He is omnipresent. I am also fully convinced that God is not constrained by time; there is no word for that so far as I know, but we could call it omnitemporal. And just as God is not constrained by time, I think the whole of the spiritual realm is similarly unconstrained by time.  So I see no reason why fish's consideration and explanation isn't perfectly acceptable and my well be the best explanation.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  Your word choice of "omnitemporal" is a valid one, similar in some respects to God's omnipresence.  I remember reading something by C.S. Lewis once where he used much of fish153's line of reasoning to explain how God can be giving His concentrated, undivided attention to each desperate prayer of His children, when countless prayers are being directed to Him in the same moment of time.  As C.S. Lewis attempted to explain it, since God has all of eternity to dwell in (He "inhabiteth eternity"), then He has all the time necessary and the ability to hone in on my single prayer about my troubles of the moment, and give me individual attention and comfort, without neglecting anyone else in the body of Christ. 

That being said and acknowledged, Christ's bodily return to this planet, synchronized with a resurrection of physical bodies, is a different matter altogether.  The return of Christ is inextricably linked together in scripture with a resurrection.  If what you and fish153 say is true about Christ repeatedly returning, then there would also have to be a resurrection event occurring continually every time He returned, which is an impossibility. 

The scriptural pattern for the resurrection / harvest of men's bodies out of the dust of the grave is pictured for us in the 3 separate harvest feast celebrations of Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles.  God preserved intact for us the record we have of the Mosaic law and its rituals under the Old Covenant so that we can now look back on the pattern of those 3 harvest celebrations under Mosaic law (representing the 3 resurrections) and recognize that two of those resurrections / harvests have already taken place, with only the last resurrection / harvest yet to be fulfilled at the time of the Feast of Tabernacles "ingathering" at the end of the year.

4WD, to some extent, I would agree with you that the resurrection body for the saints is a "spiritual body", but that fact doesn't consequently require a formless, ephemeral state or condition.  As "fellow heirs" with Christ, in the resurrected state we will inherit a "spiritual body" that resembles the one Christ had at His resurrection: flesh and bone, with no blood, and with the ability to change forms of appearance, to disappear at will, to levitate, or to consume food if desired. 

Lest we should think that Christ's resurrection form is a unique case which no one else will resemble, Christ provided samples of what the resurrected state will be like for all of us believers, by raising from the dead along with Himself the 144,000 "Firstfruits" saints that Matthew 27:52-53 describes for us.  These Matthew 27:52-53 saints were not simply an anomaly.  They were the first massive, visual demonstration to all who saw them of the resurrection hope that all the children of faith will eventually experience. 

As for the original intent of my post, 4WD, I will ask you the same kind of question that I asked fish153: do you have any legitimate reasons to disregard the way scripture defines "EVERY EYE" for us in Revelation 1:7 as being the specific group of "they who pierced Him"?  How do you interpret that sentence otherwise, if you don't agree that scripture is limiting that view of a returning Christ on that one occasion to the 1st-century generation of Jews that were responsible for condemning Christ to death?  To me, the English seems quite plain, but not everyone's brain is wired the same, of course.

[4WD]

That being said and acknowledged, Christ's bodily return to this planet, synchronized with a resurrection of physical bodies, is a different matter altogether. 

Where do you get the idea that there will be a resurrection of physcial bodies.  Paul goes to great lengths in 1 Corinthians 15 to explain that the resurrection will be of the spiritual not the natural [physical] (vv.36-50).  Peter confirms that when he talks about the destruction of the universe when Jesus returns(2 Pet 3:10-13).

The return of Christ is inextricably linked together in scripture with a resurrection.  If what you and fish153 say is true about Christ repeatedly returning, then there would also have to be a resurrection event occurring continually every time He returned, which is an impossibility.

Don't mix me up with fish.  He is a premillennialist with his multiple returns.  I am not.  Christ will return once and that is the end of this physical existence, concomitant with the resurrection and the judgment.

4WD, to some extent, I would agree with you that the resurrection body for the saints is a "spiritual body", but that doesn't consequently require a formless, ephemeral state or condition. 

The physical will cease to be (2 Peter 3:10-13).  When you say formless or ephemeral you are speaking in physical terms.  There simply will no be anything of a physical nature involved.  That is why every scriptural description of heaven [or hell] is presented in figurative language. There will be nothing even resembling this physcal [natrual] world.

As for the original intent of my post, 4WD, I will ask you the same kind of question that I asked fish153: do you have any legitimate reasons to disregard the way scripture defines "EVERY EYE" for us in Revelation 1:7 as being the specific group of "they who pierced Him"? 

I think you err when you interpret "even" as "that is".  It says "every eye": I believe that is every eye; every person; the whole of the resurrection, including "they who pierced Him".  But also I can believe that "they who pierce Him" is the whole of mankind for whom He was sacrificed.  It wasn't just a few Jews who are responsible for His sacrifice; rather it is the entirety of the human race.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  Hmmm, it looks as if your response is a bit contradictory to your own stated beliefs.  If the state of material, physical things is completely eliminated at Christ's return, in your view 4WD, how will anyone even have physical eyes to perceive the Savior's appearance?  And I Peter 5:4 does say that "the chief shepherd will APPEAR", just as the two men promised that Christ would come "in like manner" as when He ascended in a cloud from the Mount of Olives.

If the physical was to be eradicated completely at His return, why did Christ give a promise to the disciples in Luke 21:16-18 that, even after some of them would be put to death, that "there shall not an hair of your head perish"?  That "perishing", (or going out of physical existence forever) is the final fate decreed for the UNGODLY after judgment.  The saints do not expect the same outcome; that is the difference between them. 

These physical, body forms of the saints are the PERSONAL PROPERTY of Christ Himself.  They do NOT belong to us.  Both body and spirit of the saints are "bought with a price" of Christ's own blood (I Cor. 6:19-20).  To discard either the saints' bodies or spirits - Christ's personal property that has been redeemed at such great cost to Himself - this is unthinkable.  It would put the value of Christ's blood in the trash can if His purchased property is never redeemed from the dust of the grave and made incorruptible in its final state.

Why would God care so much about how we treat our physical bodies and what we do with them in this life, and then discard them completely in the next life after death?  It doesn't compute.  The Full-Preterist position adopts the same error in their thinking.

Why would God commend Joseph for his faith when he "gave commandment concerning his bones" after death (Hebrews 11:22), if the physical remains of the saints did not have a future plan for restoration into an incorruptible state?

I Corinthians 15:44 calls the resurrected body a "spiritual body" because it is specifically the Spirit's work to revive the mortal flesh of the saints in the resurrection, and render it incorruptible so that it can never die again.  Under that condition, it is animated completely by the Spirit instead of having blood flowing through the system, since "the life of the flesh is in the blood", naturally speaking, on this side of the grave.  This is the difference between Christ's resurrected "flesh and bone" form, and our current "flesh and blood" forms, which "cannot inherit the kingdom of God" in this current state.  That is why we have all the symbolism in the OT of the animal sacrifices having the blood drained from them before they were acceptable to God when presented on the altar.

You are also ignoring the entire reason for Christ's title of the "Firstborn from among the dead" (Col. 1:18).  All that means is that every one in the family belonging to Christ shares in the exact same type of resurrected body form as His was - perfected, and capable of living and standing in God's presence without being destroyed.  The body type of the "Firstborn" is similar in type to the other siblings that follow: the Second-born, the Third-born, the Fourth-born, Fifth-born, etc., etc.   It is the same type of body for every single one of the "many sons" who will be brought unto glory (Hebrews 2:10).

Referring to your II Peter 3:10-13 comments: the change and destruction of the heavens and earth on that occasion were to resemble the change and destruction experienced during Noah's flood when the character of the world as it once was had "perished".  We know this "perished" state for the globe after the flood involved drastic PHYSICAL CHANGES, but NOT an elimination of the globe.  Just so with the physical conditions in the "New Heavens and a New Earth" that Isaiah 65 predicted, and that is a current reality for us.  As Isaiah described it, among its changed conditions, this NHNE would include occasions of death, childbirth, building, planting, harvesting, praying, and the existence of sinners.  What God intends to do with this planet after His final THIRD coming at the close of human history, we are not given many details, beyond such verses as Ecclesiastes 1:4.  "One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever."

Physical alterations and destruction by literal fire DID occur in the AD 70 era with a levelled Jerusalem, many recorded earthquakes in divers places, many cities in Israel destroyed, physical signs in the skies, and finally the literal flames that turned Jerusalem into a Lake of Fire, or a "furnace of fire" as Matthew 13:42 calls it.  We have the ash layers proving this, as archaeological evidence shows us today. 

With his ambitious and lavish building programs, Herod had wanted to leave a legacy, but instead, his fabulous "works" that had been the pride of the land of Israel became a target for destruction, and these "works" were "burned up".  The days when all this destruction was going on were called "the days of vengeance" in Luke 21:22, when Judaea and Jerusalem were being judged for having shed the blood of the prophets and the apostles, from Abel onward (Luke 11:49-51).  God's vengeance for this, including the death of His Son, was specifically required of THAT generation who put His Son to death (Luke 11:51). 

No generation or city since then has been directly charged with the same offense of killing the prophets, the apostles, and the Son of God who represented all the righteous slain on the earth up to that point.  To whom much was given, much was required.  That generation was blessed to personally experience His physical presence among them; eating, and drinking with them, and teaching in their streets.  After such favor, they rejected their prophesied Messiah and sent Him to be crucified (Acts 5:30).  Consequently, they received a punishment of vengeance equal to the offense, just as Moses predicted long ago (Deut. 18:19 cp. Acts 3:23).  "This generation", (the "tribes of the land" of Israel), was the one which composed the group of "every eye" which saw Christ return, NAMELY, "they which pierced Him". 

[4WD]

4WD  -  Hmmm, it looks as if your response is a bit contradictory to your own stated beliefs.  If the state of material, physical things is completely eliminated at Christ's return, in your view 4WD, how will anyone even have physical eyes to perceive the Savior's appearance? 

Not wanting to be too unkind here; but, seriously, 3 Ress, that is really, really silly.  God is Spirit, yet in Scripture we read that He "walks", He "sees", He "hears".  In your view, how is that possible?  Do you really believe God has eyes, legs, feet, ears and all the rest of the human being body parts?  If so, my saying that is silly was very, very kind indeed.

And with that the rest of your post amounts to little more than jibberish so I will just leave it at that.  I will add here I do hope that you are not too disappointed when you do not "see" your physical body at the resurrection.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  Of course the resurrected flesh and bone form of Christ is still present now in the heavens.  This is the only way that the saints can have an intercessor - a high priest - to represent us before God.   Christ in his human / divine identity is the only being with the ability to be the bridge between God and His children on earth  The acceptance of our prayers is dependent upon this fact.   It was what Job longed for - a "daysman" to lay a hand on both him and God at the same time and be a mediator between both (Job 9:33).

Christ did not abandon his resurrected form at His ascension.  It "passed into the heavens" (Heb. 4:14).  We are told in Romans 6:9 that "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him."  That means He retained his perfected resurrection form, complete with all the post-resurrection characteristics that we are told about in the New Testament.  I don't entertain even the slightest idea of being disappointed in God's resurrecting powers for my physical body.  Christ gave ample demonstrations of His ability to do this while on earth, and I believe the eyewitness accounts of the disciples. 

You could call me strange, but I am so certain of the physical resurrection that I have gotten vanity plates for my vehicles with the names of resurrected saints given to us in scripture.   After getting a rebuilt engine and transmission for one and pouring money into restoring the other after it was abandoned into my hands, they both look like resurrected vehicles to me.     

[4WD]

3 res,

That is all pure conjecture.  And so far as I am concerned not very enlightened conjecture.  I am curious, though, will those babies who died at or shortly after birth be resurrected into those terribly small, frail bodies?  Bodies with which they can neither stand, nor walk, nor even sit up unaided.  Will my friend who is in a wheel chair because he has no hip and he cannot accommodate a replacement hip be resurrected still without a hip?  Will the thalidomide babies still be missing arms or legs?  Will some be resurrected taller than others? Some more handsome or prettier than others?  Am I going to be resurrected with the body of my youth or the body that it is now? 

Does Jesus, in His flesh and bone body still need to eat?  Eat what?  Steak?  Potatoes?  Apples?  Not to be too crude, but does He need to leave that seat at God's right hand to go relieve Himself as he obviously did here on earth.  Does Jesus walk around in heaven?  I assume there won't be any automobiles there for us to get from place to place.  Horses perhaps that we can ride?  Or maybe finally we will be able  to fly or maybe wish or think ourselves from place to place.  Will there be gravity to keep us on the ground?  Will those physical bodies be composed again of the dust of the earth?  The questions are endless and any supposed answers ridiculous.

Given any serious thought to the whole scenario, it is the flesh of our physical bodies that is at the heart of all the problems of our sinful ways.  John characterized all of sin as "the desires of the flesh and the desires of the eyes and pride in possessions--is not from the Father but is from the world" (1 John 2:16).   Are we really going to be stuck with that again?

But perhaps most of all, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption" (1Co 15:50).

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  Is anything too hard for the Lord?

I would remind you that John the Baptist told the Pharisees and Sadducees of his day, gathering around him at the River Jordan, that if God desired to do so, He could raise up children of Abraham from the very stones at their feet (Matthew 3:9).   It would be equally possible for God to raise a person's cremated remains to life again as to raise a child of faithful Abraham out of a River Jordan rock. You are introducing some of the more common objections to the reality of the resurrection that I have encountered many, many times before in my encounters with Full-Preterists.  With our finite minds, we cannot imagine how God will accomplish the restoration and transformation of our dead physical bodies that He has promised, but that's why He's God and we aren't.  You or anyone else reading this exchange might want to read some of my comments on what Christ's resurrected body form resembled in the post called "Why did Jesus tell Mary Magdalen not to touch Him?", since our resurrection will be a copy of Christ's.

I agree with you that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...", which is why I posted above that there is a difference between Christ's "FLESH AND BONES" resurrected form and our current "FLESH AND BLOOD" forms.  Christ told His disciples to touch Him, handle Him, and see that He did have a tangible form that could be perceived by the senses (Luke 24:39). 

The corporeal forms of flesh we dwell in are not sinful in and of themselves.  That is an error of doctrine that is as old as the hills.  It is the sinful DESIRES dwelling within a person (as in the I John 2:16 verse you mention) that come out of a man and defile him, just as Jesus told us in Matthew 15:15.  In the resurrection, our entire spirit, soul, and body will be purged of sin and death's corruption and made able to stand and face a righteous God.  This is the eventual incorruptible state that the saints can expect, as promised in I Cor. 15.

But all of this is veering off-course from the original intent of the post.  I would be interested to find out if any of GCF's Greek scholars or those more studied in it than I am would find any agreement with the point I am making about the word "EVEN" meaning "namely" in this Rev. 1:7 verse.

[fish153]

I just wanted to make clear I do not believe in "multiple" returns of Christ. What I was suggesting is that, because God is outside of time, that Jesus could return to ALL time periods SIMULTANEOUSLY. In this way everyone who has ever lived will see Him at ONE TIME--- even those who pierced Him.

I am not saying I believe this fully--- I have thought upon it though. We always see Jesus returning at the END of TIME--- because we LIVE within time. What if Christ returns to ALL time periods at once? Then Enoch would see the Lord's return at the SAME MOMENT we do. In fact, Enoch prophesies of that day and describes it.

But I believe the return of Christ is ONE EVENT, not multiple returns.

[AVZ]

I have an interesting take on "every eye shall see Him".  Let me explain this by asking you to imagine a parade. A parade has a beginning and an end. If you happen to be standing where the parade STARTS you see it go by piece by piece until it is through.  If you happen to be standing at the END of the parade you will see what everyone at beginning saw until the last piece goes by.

However, if you happened to be on the 10th floor of a building you could look down and see the whole parade at ONE TIME---BEGINNING TO END.  This is the position God has when it comes to time.  He is OUTSIDE of it----so he can see ALL OF IT AT ONCE.

Now, if the people in the parade (and watching the parade) were told the Lord was RETURNING--how do we know what part of the parade He is returning to?  is he returning to the END of the parade? How do we know that?  We just ASSUME he is because we are trapped and limited by time. We simply assume that Jesus will come at the END because we live inside time.

What if the Lord chose to return to the WHOLE PARADE AT ONE TIME? That would mean that the Lord will return simultaneously in 70 AD, 1000AD,  1500AD, and 2000+ AD. he is OUTSIDE of time----so He can then return to ALL OF IT AT THE SAME MOMENT.  Could this be why he tells ALL GENERATIONS to "WATCH"?  Could this be why He says He is "COMING QUICKLY"?

And if He is able to return to ALL TIME PERIODS simultaneously----then EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM at ONE MOMENT.  People in 100AD will see Him returning at the same moment that people in 2018AD are seeing Him return.  I thought about this recently and found it very interesting.

Hmmm, interesting thought.
I never took it that far. I have no problem to believe that literally every eye will see Him.
The dead will be raised. Scripture doesn't tell us how long that will take, could be a split second.

And then Jesus returns and everybody will see Him.
Yes even the ones at the other end of the globe. I have no issue believing God can manifest Himself everywhere at the same time.

[3 Resurrections]

AVZ  -  Thanks for chiming in here.  (By the way, I have always found that crawling bug of yours particularly mesmerizing.)

The question on the table is not so much if it is a POSSIBILITY that every eye could see a returning Christ at one time.   Of course, it's possible that Christ could choose to manifest Himself in that way at His return.  The real question is whether the language of this Revelation 1:7 verse is a promise of that happening or not.  I don't think the language as it is presented in Revelation 1:7 is giving that promise to us.   When I put a spotlight on the language, either in English or Greek, it doesn't say what I always thought it meant back in my youth.  This is NOT a universal view of Christ by every eye on the planet without exception being included in this context. 

Here is another example of the way the word "EVEN" has been used in Rev. 1:7.  Try looking at the way the word "even" is used in John 1:12.  "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, EVEN" (namely) "to them that believe on his name:"   This is another case of the word "even" being used as an explanatory term that specifically limits the category being described to a particular number of individuals (those that believe on His name) who are given the power to become sons of God.   

[AVZ]

AVZ  -  Thanks for chiming in here.  (By the way, I have always found that crawling bug of yours particularly mesmerizing.)

The question on the table is not so much if it is a POSSIBILITY that every eye could see a returning Christ at one time.   Of course, it's possible that Christ could choose to manifest Himself in that way at His return.  The real question is whether the language of this Revelation 1:7 verse is a promise of that happening or not.  I don't think the language as it is presented in Revelation 1:7 is giving that promise to us.   When I put a spotlight on the language, either in English or Greek, it doesn't say what I always thought it meant back in my youth.  This is NOT a universal view of Christ by every eye on the planet without exception being included in this context. 

Here is another example of the way the word "EVEN" has been used in Rev. 1:7.  Try looking at the way the word "even" is used in John 1:12.  "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, EVEN" (namely) "to them that believe on his name:"   This is another case of the word "even" being used as an explanatory term that specifically limits the category being described to a particular number of individuals (those that believe on His name) who are given the power to become sons of God.

Your explanation of the word "even" does not help you.
The destruction of Jerusalem took place many years after the death of Christ, so logically at least some of those who pierced Him had passed away.
In your explanation those who passed away did not see Jesus returning.

At least Fish' and my explanation allow for every eye, including those who physically pierced Him, to see His return.


But before all that is being considered, you have to ask yourself the question: Did Jesus indeed return in 70AD?
If you appeal to prophesy, you must ask yourself: Has all prophesy regarding the end time come true?

And finally you will have to answer the question: If Jesus did indeed return in 70AD, then how about us? Did we miss Judgment Day?
Are we the people that did not make it to heaven and are we now living in hell?

[4WD]

4WD  -  Is anything too hard for the Lord?

Yes, lying would be too hard for the Lord.  Being unjust would be too hard for the Lord.  But of course that is not what you are thinking of.  But whenever I hear someone ask such a thing, I can be sure that what is coming is not something found in Scripture, but something dreamed up out of their own head.

I agree with you that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God...", which is why I posted above that there is a difference between Christ's "FLESH AND BONES" resurrected form and our current "FLESH AND BLOOD" forms. 

So you believe our resurrection is going to be flesh with no blood.  What does that even mean?  Flesh with no blood is the meat of a dead animal.  Why would God even suggest such a thing?

[RB]

Concerning replies 9,10 and 11~ I will only say this for now:

1st John 3:2~Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

He left this world at the age of 33, so, I think we all shall be around that age including young and old that have died in Christ. But, then again I do not know it has not been revealed to us. You both made some good points. But I do believe EVERY EYE shall see Christ when he comes again for at THAT POINT we shall have our new glorified bodies with supernatural power, just as Christ had when he left this world and passed into the heavens. Nevertheless.....

it doth not yet appear what we shall be

RB

[Ginger Rella]

But I do believe EVERY EYE shall see Christ when he comes again for at THAT POINT we shall have our new glorified bodies with supernatural power, just as Christ had when he left this world and passed into the heavens. RB

Then you believe that only those who have their new bodies with supernatural powers will see HIM?

That is saying we will get our new bodies actually before we see Him, (possibly simutaneously with His arrival?) and suggests that no other persons will?

[3 Resurrections]

RB  -  Appreciate you dropping by here.  Yes, John spoke truly.  To those he was addressing in I John 3:2, "...not yet was it manifested what we shall be" (Interlinear).  In real time, these he wrote to had not yet received their post-resurrection, incorruptible bodies with the Spirit's supernatural power, but it was coming soon for them, when they would openly be revealed that they were the sons of God. 

As Romans 8:18-19 (YLT) puts it, (written around AD 60), "For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory ABOUT TO BE REVEALED in us; for the earnest looking out of the creation doth expect the revelation of the sons of God."

Currently, this I John 3:2 verse also can apply to us - to all the saints of the New Covenant Age that have not yet been manifested openly in our post-resurrection bodies.  This manifestation of us in our final, glorified body forms will eventually come at the last, 3rd resurrection.  RB, you would not agree with me that it is coming at the end of the 7th millennium in AD 3033, but that's okay.  That doesn't change our agreement on what we as resurrected saints will inherit, and what we will see with our resurrected eyes.  As Job anticipated for himself in the resurrection after death, "...in my flesh shall I SEE GOD".   The ultimate experience that Moses wished to have granted to him on the mountain is what every saint instinctively longs for - to look upon the face of God.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  So, you would compare the resurrected, flesh-and-bones body of Jesus Christ as handled by the disciples on that first day of the week to "the meat of a dead animal"?  Without the life-infusing presence of the Holy Spirit within Christ, yes, that would be an apt description of a bloodless form of flesh and bones, I suppose.  However, the presence of the Holy Spirit made all the difference in the world.  The resurrected Christ which had the Spirit within Him was able to breathe on the disciples and pass it on to them when He met them that first evening (John 20:22).  Which is why even on this side of the grave, we as children of God who have the indwelling presence of the Spirit HAVE ETERNAL LIFE dwelling in us. 

It's just like Romans 8:11 tells us, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you."  This quickened state of a dead saint's body by the Spirit is the same as that of the "spiritual body" that I Cor. 15:44 describes for us.  Our resurrection experience will match the resurrection experience of Christ.  We have God's word on that.

Don't ask me to explain the mechanics of how this was done and will yet be done for us in the future.  It's hardly a process I could dream up out of my own head.  I'm a creative person, generally speaking, but I'm not that gifted.

[4WD]

4WD  -  So, you would compare the resurrected, flesh-and-bones body of Jesus Christ as handled by the disciples on that first day of the week to "the meat of a dead animal"?

  Not me, you.  Christ brought several back from the dead.  But that does not mean that they were resurrected.  I submit to you that Jesus being raised from the dead and His resurrection are not precisely the same thing.  We note that Lazarus was raised from the dead, though he was not resurrected.  Jesus was raised from the dead and also resurrected.  We could carry this discussion on for days, but I suspect it would really lead nowhere.

It's just like Romans 8:11 tells us, "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you."  This quickened state of a dead saint's body by the Spirit is the same as that of the "spiritual body" that I Cor. 15:44 describes for us.  Our resurrection experience will match the resurrection experience of Christ.  We have God's word on that.

  Romans 8:11 is not speaking about the resurrection of the dead saint's body.  That quickening spoken of there is the rebirth of the spirit, dead in trespasses and sins, not the raising up of a dead physical body. It is not the Holy Spirit to whom the resurrection at Jesus' second coming is attributed.  It seems to me that you are a bit confused about this whole subject.  My guess is that you think that Jesus whom God has seat at his right hand is still in form of a human being.

[3 Resurrections]

AVZ  -  Your thoughts and questions are marching along the exact same path that I have been walking on for more than 5 years now.  These are legitimate questions, and there are legitimate answers for them.

Your first statement:  "The destruction of Jerusalem took place many years after the death of Christ, so logically at least some of those who pierced Him had passed away.  In your explanation those who passed away did not see Jesus returning." 

No, that's not quite all of my explanation of this.  We have at least one example from that first-century generation given to us in scripture of a person who died before AD 70, but who still saw Christ returning at that time.  It was Caiaphas.  In Matthew 26:64, while on trial before this high priest, Christ promised this man who was orchestrating His own crucifixion that "Hereafter shall ye SEE THE SON OF MAN sitting on the right hand of power, AND COMING IN THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."  Caiaphas was personally promised a view of Christ's return.  And I know he died prior to AD 70 because of the testimony in Revelation 17:10 that the first FIVE of those seven "kings" (which were high priests of the house of Annas) had already fallen in death before John was writing Revelation.  And that was in late AD 59 / early AD 60 when Revelation was written, a date I have taken pains to research exactly from internal evidence.  So Caiaphas was dead before then, along with Annas his Father-in-law, and 3 of his high priest sons - Eleazar, Jonathan, and Matthias.

As I have posted comments before on this site, Caiaphas is the one playing the part of the "rich man" in the "Lazarus and the Rich Man" parable who had 5 "brothers" (actually 5 brothers-in-law, who all served as high priests after Annas).  This rich man's "father" in the parable was Annas, the patriarch high priest of this family who masterminded the scheme for Christ's betrayal and crucifixion.  The "rich man" in the parable - Caiaphas - was portrayed as being tormented after death in the flames, which I believe was a prophetic picture of the "furnace of fire" that was going to be in Jerusalem while it was being destroyed in the AD 70 conflagration. 

There is a curious depiction of Jerusalem in Isaiah 31:9 which tells us that the Lord's "...FIRE is in Zion, and His FURNACE in Jerusalem".  We hear an echo of this in Matthew 13:42,50, as the tares are cast into the "FURNACE OF FIRE" at the completion of the Old Covenant Age (not the end of the world - a bad translation).  There would be wailing and gnashing of teeth in this "furnace". 

The parallel account to this Matthew 13:42,50 text, (found in Luke 13:28), says that the Jews of that generation who had personally encountered Christ in their midst would be the ones wailing and gnashing their teeth as they SAW Abraham, Isaac, and all the prophets entering the kingdom of God, and themselves being "thrust out".  This is exactly the same view that the "rich man" who had died (Caiaphas) saw across the great gulf fixed between himself and Abraham.  This "great gulf" in the parable I believe is meant to be the Kidron Valley between the besieged AD 70 Jerusalem going up in flames and the Mount of Olives eastward across the valley.  We are told in Zechariah 14:4 that Christ would STAND on this Mount of Olives when He returned with all his holy angels with Him.  I believe He did just that back in AD 70, and the resulting landslide rubble field currently lying on the slopes of the Mount of Olives was Christ's "calling card" that He left afterward for us to see.  Earthquake rubble slid into the valley as far as Azal, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 in the LXX prophesied that it would happen at that time. 

We are also told in II Timothy 4:1 (written about AD 66) that the Lord Jesus Christ was "ABOUT TO JUDGE the quick AND the dead at His appearance and His kingdom".  This was a judgment of both the living generation of Jews who pierced Christ and also the dead from that same generation who then experienced a "resurrection to damnation" for rejecting their messiah.   "Every eye" of both of these groups SAW the returning Christ.  Those who were alive seeing Christ's return, with themselves "thrust out", were wailing and gnashing their teeth as they mourned.  Those who were resurrected to damnation (like Caiaphas) saw this return of Christ before they were judged by being destroyed, both body and soul.  It was only justice that Caiaphas and that generation which had pierced Christ would face judgment at the scene where their original crime was committed, I would say.

AVZ, your next question was "Did Jesus indeed return in AD 70?"  A resounding "YES" from every book in the New Testament, with one or two exceptions that don't mention the subject.  As I said above, the disciples would personally not have gone over all the cities of Israel with their evangelistic teaching before the Son of God returned, according to Matthew 10:23.  That means Christ's second coming was predicted to occur in THEIR generation.   

Next question: "has all prophesy regarding the end time come true?"  Another emphatic "YES", when it refers to the end of that generation's Old Covenant Age.  After that, there was not only a single "age to come" that Paul mentioned (the New Covenant Age) which would follow the Old Covenant age then present (Ephesians 1:21), but he also spoke of "ages (plural) that are coming" (Ephesians 2:7) after the end of the Old Covenant Age that Paul was sitting in.  This indicates that there is a culmination point for us in OUR future, with another type of age that comes after the end of the New Covenant Age with its 3rd resurrection in which we will participate.  Time marches on into another kind of age, it would seem, even after the close of human history.

Your last question: "...how about us?  did we miss Judgment Day?"  YES, we missed the AD 70 judgment, because we were not part of the judgment day that covered everyone up to the end of the Old Covenant Age.  And NO, we will NOT miss the future Judgment Day that closes out God's dealings with all those who have lived solely under the conditions of the New Covenant.  Isaiah's words about the New Heaven and the New Earth in Isaiah 65 describe the current state of affairs in our world, with the New Jerusalem in place under the New Covenant.  The New Jerusalem is heaven's gift to us, come down from God OUT OF heaven.  The New Jerusalem is not heaven itself, though.  Heaven is our final destination when our glorified, incorruptible bodies will eventually join those resurrected saints from the Old Covenant Age who have been there since AD 70, when Christ gathered them together and "received them unto Himself".

[fish153]

3 resurrections said---

>>>And I know he died prior to AD 70 because of the testimony in Revelation 17:10 that the first FIVE of those seven "kings" (which were high priests of the house of Annas) had already fallen in death before John was writing Revelation.<<<

Who says the 7 Kings were high priests from the house of Annas? I've never heard that before. The 7 kings are 7 kingdoms that ruled the world and almost every commentator agrees with that. So your whole post is based on faulty information.

[3 Resurrections]

fish153  -  I'm not surprised you happened to overlook the posted comments on the subject of the 7 "kings" of Revelation 17:10 being the high priests of the House of Annas, since there is a veritable river of comments that flow through this site every day.  Easy to miss a few posts among the rest.  But yes, this topic has been discussed in several posts that I can think of off the top of my head. 

Try "LITTLE KNOW BIBLE FACTS" in the Theology forum, posted around June last year, I think.
Also "Who are (sic) what were the kings of Revelation 17?" in the Preterist forum.
And this one ..."There R 7 kings: 5 are fallen, and 1 is, and the 7th is not yet come.  Who is He?" in the End Times forum.
Plus this one I posted originally in the Preterist forum called "The Sea Beast...The Land Beast...and The Scarlet Beast".   This subject of the 7 "kings" being 7 high priests of the House of Annas would be under the Scarlet Beast's description. 

Unless Wycliffe's_Shillelagh has changed his mind in the interim, he also believes as I do that these 7 "kings" are the 7 high priests of the House of Annas.  And they are "KINGS" - NOT KINGDOMS.  Anytime we go inflating or altering the actual terms that scripture gives us, we end up going off into the weeds.  A "king" is not the same thing as a "kingdom".

These 7 "kings" on the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 that the harlot is riding on are also called "kings of the earth" in Revelation 17:18, that the woman was THEN REIGNING OVER while John was writing Revelation.  This eliminates a modern-day interpretation of what they are.   "Kings of the earth" is a title that Christ used to describe the high priests and their sons in Matthew 17:25.  You will miss that fact if you don't understand what the coin was which Peter took from the fish's mouth to pay the Temple Tax. 

You need to look up the history and see a picture of the Tyrian shekel - the "drachma" or "didrachmas" - that was the only type of coin permitted as legal tender (because of the purity of its silver content) when the Jews paid the yearly Temple Tax for each adult male.  This is what gave the "money-changers" in the temple such brisk business and immense profits, as they converted any foreign currency into the required Tyrian shekel or half-shekel - for a surcharge.   This coin was, I believe, the actual "mark of the Beast" (the Roman Sea Beast), imposed by the Land Beast upon their own people in Judaea.   It had forbidden images of the pagan demi-god Herakles on the front, and the Roman eagle on the back, with the set of initials "KP" that stood for "kratos Romaion", or "power of the Romans".   Under OT law, the Israelites were not supposed to take these abominable gold or silver graven images into their houses, let alone the Temple (Deut. 7:25-26).  Yet in the days of Christ and before then, it was not only tolerated, but REQUIRED as payment for the Temple Tax or to purchase or sell sacrificial animals.  (No buying or selling without this marked coin - Revelation 13:17).

At any rate, even though this coin was required of the people of Judaea for the annual Temple Tax payment, the "kings of the earth" (the high priests and their sons) were exempt from having to pay it themselves, just as all the Levites were exempt from paying the half-shekel fee back in the days of the tabernacle.  Christ, (who truly was the Son of His Father's house, the temple), more than anyone else should have been "free" from paying the Temple tax, since He would eventually become the ultimate high priest at His first ascension on His resurrection day.  To demonstrate His humility to Peter, He had him pay this tax anyway - or I guess we could say the fish paid the fee for both Peter and Christ. 

fish153, here's another example of the high priests being considered "kings".  If you aren't allergic to reading the LXX, Hannah's prayer in I Samuel 2:10 (I Kings 2:10 in the LXX) says that God "gives strength to our KINGS", when Saul, Israel's first monarch, had not even been born yet.  So Hannah has to be stating that God gives strength to the high priests of Israel.  There are other uses of this phrase "kings of the earth" in scripture which refer to the high priests, but I won't take time to list them here, since they are mentioned in some of the posts listed above.

The Greek word for "earth" in this phrase is "GE", which is quite often used to refer to the "LAND (ge) of Israel" - not the entire globe.  In Revelation 17:18, the "kings of the earth" (high prieests of the land of Israel) at that time were being "reigned over" by Roman-governed Jerusalem and its client-king (Herod's dynasty) that had a degree of autonomy only because it was sanctioned by the Roman Senate and the Roman power structure stationed in Judaea.  The high priest's garments had been taken from their sacred storage room in the temple, and were being kept in the Roman fortress of Antonia, to be doled out to the high priest on the feast days - if they remained properly submissive to Rome.  Rome had also put itself in charge of appointing the high priests.  This was a gross corruption of what had once been a sacred, hereditary role.  Instead, it had turned into an appointment that could be withdrawn or awarded, sometimes on a yearly basis, to whomever Rome decided to favor. 

This entire state of affairs was a complete upside-down reversal of God's original setup, where the high priest was supposed to be the final authority in Jerusalem on all matters of dispute under Mosaic law, both religious and civil (Deut. 17:8-13).  Instead, Jerusalem's leadership had been sucking up to the Roman authorities, and pandering to them (even to the point of bribery to obtain the coveted position of high priest) in order to gain favorable concessions for the nation and comfortable financial profits.  In other words, Jerusalem had turned into a harlot for hire that was also "reigning over the kings of the earth" (the high priests). 

Annas was particularly adept at maintaining his family's status in Israel by his cooperation with Rome.   His methods turned out to be unusually successful, since he saw to it that all five of his sons and his son-in-law were in a favored position to be given the high priesthood, one after another.  This lasted from his own term in office starting in AD 6 almost without interruption until his grandson's term, who served until AD 66.  Caiaphas adopted his own father-in-law's techniques for staying in Rome's good graces.  And he perceived Jesus to be a real threat to his carefully crafted status quo.   This entire clan united itself against the Savior during His earthly ministry, and continued to harass and persecute the infant church in its early days after being launched at Pentecost.  The 7th "king" of this clan, Ananus, even had Jesus' half brother James killed in AD 62 / 63.  Yes, I am absolutely sure these 7 high priests and the 8th one are those 7 and an 8th high priests that made up the House of Annas.  They match the language, the timing, and the activity in Revelation 17 exactly.

[AVZ]

AVZ  -  Your thoughts and questions are marching along the exact same path that I have been walking on for more than 5 years now.  These are legitimate questions, and there are legitimate answers for them.

Sure, but I have come to a complete different conclusion.
I have not seen the sea giving up the dead. I have not seen massive destruction on a global scale. I have not seen a global Judgment Day or records thereof.
I have not seen a war in which billions are killed. I have not seen the opening if the pits of hell. I have not seen a global delusion of mankind by the anti-Christ.

These prophesies simply have not come to pass. Judgement Day has not happened yet.
The sheep have not been separated from the goats and Satan and his cronies have not been thrown in hell yet.

None of your arguments are valid or make any sense if the simple fact is that Satan still goes about his business, people still suffer and die and the dead are still in their grave.

[RB]

RB, you would not agree with me that it is coming at the end of the 7th millennium in AD 3033, but that's okay.  That doesn't change our agreement on what we as resurrected saints will inherit, and what we will see with our resurrected eyes.

I would not~for a few reasons~a couple for now: First and foremost, 2033 does not bring an end to the seventh millennium, since I'm very convinced that this world and man upon the earth has already elapsed into the "fourteen" millennium using Genesis five and 10 as the time markers,. We have somewhat discussed this I believe before. Second and just as important~Setting a year or even within a certain time period of a few years is being wiser than Daniel, to whom much was revealed. Jesus Christ, as the Son OF God did not even know the day or hour, but DID give us seasons to know that it was at hand....at hand with Christ, does not mean within 100 years but short in comparison too many, many millennium. Within a season, we may (a season being with a few hundred years, not thousands) know and can know that it is at hand~a few hundred years.

I have not seen a global delusion of mankind by the anti-Christ.

On this you are wrong. I have and you can as well if you "somewhat" (not perfectly) understood Daniel 7-12; Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 and Revelation 20:1-9. The man of sin...man of sin or the antichrist sits and reigns in the temple (churches of Christ) declaring himself God! It's right before your eyes, even NOW!

[RB]

Then you believe that only those who have their new bodies with supernatural powers will see HIM? That is saying we will get our new bodies actually before we see Him, (possibly simultaneously with His arrival?) and suggests that no other persons will?

Again, it is not perfectly clear~but, Christ's coming and the resurrection is simultaneously in a twinkling of an eye. That's fast with no KNOWN space/time in between. With our spiritual bodies and at that time ALL THINGS change in the manner in which we now know and do things. All I can say is this: I'm looking through a glass that is somewhat darkly but getting clearer as I keep looking carefully through them.

[fish153]

3 resurrections said----

>>>Yes, I am absolutely sure these 7 high priests and the 8th one are those 7 and an 8th high priests that made up the House of Annas.  They match the language, the timing, and the activity in Revelation 17 exactly.<<<<

I think you are completely mistaken, and using this for a preterist view.  The most logical interpretation of 5 kings haven fallen, one being in power, and one to come is the Kingdoms of the
world:

The empires of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia and Greece each ruled the known world. . . The Roman Empire ruled in John’s day.  5 great Kingdoms had reigned and fallen by the time the Roman Empire came to power.  Most assuredly John is referring to this succession of Kingdoms----with one yet to come out of which will come the eigth "king".  Revelation 17 and 18 are dealing with the WORLD LEADER.

Your interpretation only fits for preterists so I am not surprised you use it.

[4WD]

Again, it is not perfectly clear~but, Christ's coming and the resurrection is simultaneously in a twinkling of an eye. That's fast with no KNOWN space/time in between. With our spiritual bodies and at that time ALL THINGS change in the manner in which we now know and do things. All I can say is this: I'm looking through a glass that is somewhat darkly but getting clearer as I keep looking carefully through them.

Very good, RB.

[3 Resurrections]

4WD  -  You're right, we'll just have to agree to disagree on a physical resurrection of the mortal bodies of the saints.  I think you are proposing an artificial distinction that scripture does not make between someone being raised from the dead and the resurrected state, but my saying so certainly won't convince anyone who has their mind made up otherwise.  In that case, would you call yourself a sort of modern-day type Sadducee, if you share that part of their doctrinal views?

I would challenge you on your interpretation of Romans 8:11, though.  If that resurrection being spoken of there is strictly a "rebirth of the spirit, dead in trespasses and sins" and not a physical resurrection of the mortal body, as you have said, then Christ's "death", which ours is being compared to in that verse, would mean that Christ was also "dead in trespasses and sins", and was raised to spiritual life from that condition.  Sorry, can't agree with that comparison at all, because logically, that is what your interpretation leads to.

And your last guess is correct - I do believe scripture teaches that Christ retained His resurrected human form at His ascension, with all its supernatural properties, which He still retains to this day.  Hebrews 7 is pretty plain that Christ's high priesthood has the "similitude of Melchisedec" with the "power of an ENDLESS LIFE" (Hebrews 7:16).  In contrast to mere mortal high priests who could not continue in their physical forms because they physically died, Christ "continueth ever" in that same resurrected, glorified form (Hebrews 7:24).  A high priest had to identify as one of those he represented, which is why Christ took on Himself the form of a servant and was "made in the likeness of men" (Phil. 2:7).  If He abandoned that glorified, resurrected human form after His ascension, Christ could no longer legally represent human saints before God's throne. 

Hebrews 2:17 (KJV)  -  "Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in all things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people".   

 

[3 Resurrections]

RB  -  If you regard it as a presumption to have knowledge greater than Daniel's, let me jog your memory a bit.  Scripture tells us that even the least of us, in our current standing of being in the kingdom of God (Rev. 1:9, Hebrews 12:28) can be even "greater" than John the Baptist (Luke 7:28).  And if there were none born of women greater than John the Baptist in those Old Covenant days, then that means John was greater than Daniel.  So, the equation goes like this: Daniel < John the Baptist < US in the kingdom of God now, under the current privileged conditions of the New Covenant.  Generally speaking, the revelation of God to His people is a progressive one, as tracked through all of human history.

The people of Christ's day were encouraged to read Daniel's writing (Mark 13:14) and UNDERSTAND the timing when Daniel's peole were going to be surrounded by armies and on the brink of their power being "shattered".  This definitely described the time when Daniel's people would have all their tribal distinctions obliterated for all time.  The "mystery of God" would be finished, (as Rev. 10:7 said), once the ethnic tribes were dissolved completely, and it was openly revealed that there were no class distinctions existing between Jew and Gentile. 

The division between the "sea" and the "land" has typically in scripture represented the division between pagan, Gentile nations and the nation of God's chosen people (Isaiah 60:5 for one example).  Once the "mystery of God" was finished, that erased the "sea" classification completely ("no more sea" in Rev. 21:1), leaving nothing but the "land" of Canaan category remaining.  This single category of the righteous is called the "Israel of God", which has actually been the case all along, ever since creation, but was not openly manifested as such until AD 70 dissolved all those elementary Old Covenant classifications, and got them out of the way, leaving the unshaken kingdom of the "One New Man" standing.

Our privileged standing as saints living under this New Covenant includes what should be an increasing knowledge of what God's word says.  RB, I have read comments of yours that admit we today can have a better view of God's plans for humanity than the generations that preceded us.  Currently, we have better than a 2,500-year advantage over the prophet Daniel, and can track the progress of God's activity on this planet that much further down the timeline.  That is, if we are not afraid to plant our noses in a few history books :- )

RB, you may want to reconsider your stated opinion above concerning a "SEASON" being equal to a few 100 years.  Joshua 24:7 compared to Psalms 95:8-10 tells us that a "LONG SEASON" amounted to FORTY YEARS of wilderness wandering.  That is not a few hundred years.  Further, that means a "LITTLE SEASON" when Satan was loosed (Rev. 20:3) should amount to LESS THAN FORTY YEARS, if we go by scripture's comparison.

Also, in your #26 reply above, you have repeated the scripture saying that not even Christ knew the day and hour of His return (Matt. 24:36).  LaSpino3 made an excellent point about that in his "No man knows" post.  He emphasized that "No man knoweth" was written in the PRESENT TENSE of THAT time.  We incorrectly interpret that statement if we think that it means "no man will EVER know, nor SHOULD anyone ever try to know" the time of Christ's appearing.  And Jesus Christ did not stay ignorant of the day and hour of His own return, once He had ascended to heaven.  God revealed this information to Him then, after which time, Christ turned around and then told John about it through His "messenger" (Rev. 1:1).  John then openly told his own readers exactly what would be happening prior to, during, and after Christ returned - and the time was "AT HAND" for John's readers (Rev. 1:3).

Don't you remember, RB, from Ezekiel 12:22-28 how God defines "AT HAND"?  It's not a few hundred years - it is defined as "IN YOUR DAYS".  Not only would God "SAY the word" of prophecy, but He would also "PERFORM it" during the same time period in which those words were heard.  This "AT HAND' principle at work in Ezekiel 12:23 also applies to all the prophetic words of Revelation, which were sandwiched between the two "AT HAND" bookends placed at the very beginning and at the very end of Revelation (Rev. 1:3, and Rev. 22:10).  Anyone who ignores those two "AT HAND" bookends of Revelation has torn out the "Introduction" page of John's book , as well as the last page of the final chapter, and can then apply those prophecies to any time period they wish.  Revelation does not give us that freedom.

   

[fish153]

3 Resurrections----

You are quite correct about the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ. In fact, Luke 24 includes passages that were meant entirely to PROVE this beyond a shadow
of a doubt, and to confront the heresy that Jesus did not rise again in a resurrection "body":


"While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence".  (Luke 24: 36-42)

Jesus is clearly stating that He has a resurrection body of FLESH AND BONE (He does not say flesh and blood--but bone).  He still has the marks of the crucifixion in his hands and feet, and shows the disciples.  He also EATS in front of them. The new resurrection body will not REQUIRE food to exist----but it apparently can consume food if desired.

It is a heresy to believe that Jesus rose from the dead without a body.  The Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe this----that the body simply disappeared, and Jesus rose as a spirit alone.  That is HERESY.  John the Apostle even confronts that thought in his Epistle.  Jesus came in a body----and he will also RETURN in a body.

[3 Resurrections]

AVZ  -  All those things you mentioned that you haven't seen with your own eyes were not intended for your eyes; they were intended for the eyes of the first-century generation.  Speaking to His disciples privately in Luke 21, Christ gave those 4 disciples, (Peter, James, John, and Andrew), a short list of dire events that in Mark 13:8 He called "the BEGINNING of sorrows" that THEY would see and experience.  The remaining list of disastrous sorrows in Luke 21 would occur in rapid succession until the end, finishing with the "Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory" (Luke 21:27).  All of that particular list of sorrows ended at that point. 

When Revelation 21:4 says that the New Jerusalem had tears wiped away, with no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, nor pain (distress), it is contrasting the state of those of us under the New Covenant relationship, where God tabernacles with His children and is our temple, and comparing it with the tragic circumstances that wiped out the old, physical Jerusalem temple and city which were the focus of the Old Covenant, with its ordinances of sacrificial animal death, etc.  Rev. 21:4 is not describing the elimination of arthritis, the end of cancer, and no more funerals, because none of that kind of sorrows had a "BEGINNING" during the disciples days.

These particular "sorrows" in Mark 13:8 were what Christ called "the days of vengeance" that would bring "great distress in the land" (ge - the land of Judaea) "and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE".  When Christ spoke of "THIS PEOPLE", He was referring to His own people that would be the recipients of His vengeance.  The entire list of sorrows, which would conclude with the return of the Son of Man and the redemption of the saints, Christ said would occur before that generation of those people had passed away (Luke 21:32).  Those "days of vengeance" would be when "the Lord shall judge His people", as Hebrews 10:30 says.  That was the judgment day which has already happened long ago, because Hebrews 10:37 said it would only be a "very little while" until Christ came, and He would not delay.  Specifically, it is called "a little while - how little!  how little!" in the Greek (mikron, hoson, hoson).  From about AD 64 when Hebrews was penned until AD 70 qualifies as a "very little while" until Christ came.

You have stated that currently "Satan still goes about his business...", as proof that none of my arguments in this post have validity.  The simple fact is that Zechariah 13:2 said that any "unclean spirit" would "pass out of the land" in that same day when the tribes of the land were mourning as they looked upon Him whom they pierced (Zech 12:10).  This shows us that the demonic world is not present in this world any longer since then, since there are no "tribes of the land" classifications in existence anymore after Jerusalem and Judah were besieged (Zech 12:2). 

Neither is Satan around any longer, since God promised in Isaiah 27:1 that He would destroy the dragon, the crooked serpent, in the same day that He would perform a resurrection for the righteous and a punishment on the iniquitous people of the land (Isaiah 26:19).  The blood of all those slain on the earth would be revealed at that point (Isaiah 26:21), just as Christ promised to take the guilt for all the righteous blood slain since Abel and bring judgment for it on that first-century generation of those who had crucified Him (Luke 11:49-51 compared with Rev. 18:24).

The fact that people still suffer from the consequences of evil at this point in history is not due to any remaining demonic or Satanic presence, but to the lusts that war inside men's hearts that find expression in all sorts of evil (James 4:1).  Mankind does not require the presence of a demonic world to provide inspiration for the evil they commit.  We are inventive enough on our own.  The present existence of Satan and his minions does seem to be an opinion for which people will fight to the death to maintain.  I have no problem in being considered a fool for believing otherwise, since scripture contains ample testimony that Christ's return in AD 70 already accomplished the destruction of Satan and every unclean spirit after every unclean spirit was imprisoned in Jerusalem (Rev. 18:2).  One day I will get around to posting the scripture evidence of this for those who may be interested, when my work schedule permits.   

Concerning your last point about "...the dead are still in their grave" as proof that there is no validity to my post's comments: neither you nor anyone else can possibly confirm that every dead body since creation is still residing in the grave at this point.  I believe the testimony of the scriptures themselves that say Christ has already raised the righteous dead, and taken their incorruptible bodies back to heaven with Him on the day when He said He would come for them.  Daniel's 1,335th day in Dan. 12:11-13 gives us the precise date on the calendar for this, which I have gone into detail elsewhere to prove.  That means the RIGHTEOUS dead prior to Pentecost Day in AD 70 no longer have mortal bodies residing in the grave; they were resurrected, changed, and raptured to heaven when Christ returned and took them with Him back to the Father.   The UNRIGHTEOUS dead up to that date received a resurrection to damnation, which left their bodies to perish in the grave (Gehenna) and their souls to be likewise destroyed (Matthew 10:28).  Any bodies of those who have died AFTER that date of Pentecost in AD 70, (both righteous and unrighteous) are currently in the grave awaiting the next judgment event at the close of human history and the end of the New Covenant Age. 

[3 Resurrections]

fish153  -  Appreciate your affirmation concerning the one point about Christ retaining His glorified resurrection body.  I do enjoy the subject of the resurrection, since we all have a vested interest in it, and it was meant to be a comfort to God's sons and daughters.

Referring to your #28 reply about the 7 "kings" - when you state that these 7 "kings" in Revelation 17 are kingdoms instead of kings, that more or less flips the description of the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17 upside down.  The Scarlet Beast is ITSELF a single kingdom, just as Daniel's 4 beasts (the lion, bear, leopard, and the one diverse from the others) each represented a kingdom.  But the 7 heads which are a featured characteristic of that Scarlet Beast's kingdom are not 7 MORE kingdoms equally important to the Scarlet Beast kingdom itself.  They are "kings" that are PART OF that Scarlet Beast kingdom.

A kingdom, by the way, which was ABOUT TO ARISE out of the abyss as John was writing (the abyss being comparable to a state of death, as in Romans 10:7).  It had not been in existence for a while, but would be reviving for a short time, because it was also ABOUT TO GO INTO DESTRUCTION (Rev. 17:8).  This Scarlet Beast is introduced to us in the WILDERNESS setting, which time out of mind has continually been associated with Judea's landscape (and was also identified with the people of Israel's beginning as a nation during their wilderness wanderings - Deut 32:10). 

This Scarlet Beast is totally Judean in origin and in its characteristics.  It sat on Jerusalem's 7 hills, with "that great city", Jerusalem, perched on those 7 hills, which was then "ruling over"" the high priest / "kings of the earth" at the time John was writing Revelation.  The Scarlet Beast is meant to represent the independent kingdom nation of Israel, which had once existed in total independence after the Maccabean victories bought a hard-won freedom for their people that lasted for about 80 years (when the Scarlet Beast "WAS" in existence).  Then Pompey's takeover in 63 BC erased that independent kingdom of Israel from the scene (when the Scarlet Beast "IS NOT" in existence).  That loss of the independent Scarlet Beast kingdom lasted until AD 66, which is why the disciples asked Christ after His resurrection if He would at that time "restore again the kingdom to Israel" (Acts 1:6).  It was not in existence at that point in AD 33.

This state of non-existence lasted until AD 66, when the "apostasia" - the rebellion against Rome and Rome-governed Jerusalem - was launched by the Zealot uprising (when the Scarlet Beast "YET IS" once more in existence).  As John wrote Revelation in late AD 59 to early AD 60, that Zealot-led rebellion of AD 66 was not far off.  Truly, the Scarlet Beast of an independent kingdom nation of Israel was ABOUT TO ARISE from the abyss at that point.  It would initially be led by the last, 8th "king" / high priest (Mattathias, grandson of Annas, who was "of the seven" because he was in the genetic line of Annas).  He was appointed to serve as high priest from AD 65 to AD 66, but he, too, was destined to "go into destruction" (Revelation 17:11) before the close of AD 70.  In order to advance their own candidates to fill the coveted Messiah role, the Zealots overthrew Mattathias and the whole high priest succession process in AD 67 by setting up their own puppet high priest Phannias by casting lots for the position.

All these men fighting to become the military-type Messiah of their people were working to become a "WORLD LEADER", as you have called it in your reply, fish153, at Rome's expense.   If any one of the Zealot leaders could have defeated Rome, the master of the known world at that time, it literally would have made Jerusalem and whoever claimed to be in charge of the city the master of the entire known world.  A tempting goal indeed, especially since they thought they had God on their side (the "strong delusion" that they all suffered from).  However, every one of these aspiring pseudo-messiahs were all destined for destruction, since the Scarlet Beast in its entirety was doomed to utter perdition and destruction - heads, horns, harlot city, and all.

Not all Preterists ascribe to these particulars as I have laid them out above, fish153, so don't expect a consensus on these views.